Warren Mainard: Welcome to another edition of the IMPACT Players Podcast. My name is Warren Mainard. I am the Executive Director of IMPACT Players, an organization dedicated towards inspiring men to become great husbands, fathers, and leaders. That's what we're passionate about and that's why we've got on the show today a special guest and a new friend of mine, Mark Gordon. Who has been introduced to me by another friend of IMPACT Players, Gary Chupik, who we had on a podcast just a few days ago. So, Mark, welcome to the show. Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to do this podcast and YouTube with us and we look forward to getting to know you a little bit.
Mark Gordon: Yeah, Warren, I just, I'm really grateful for what you just said, that I love your ministry. We want to empower men to be men, to be dads, to be husbands. And I just think the society has kind of messed up what that's supposed to look like. And so I really appreciate the ministry that you have.
Warren Mainard: Well, thank you. And I know we definitely share a lot of the same values as it relates to that. And you recently released, or at least, announced that you are publishing a book called Relationship Matters. And we're going to get into that in just a few minutes. But tell us a little bit about, Mark Gordon, the man. I think sometimes it's easy to jump into our accomplishments and the things that we do vocationally. But tell us about Mark Gordon the man, who are you as a man, a husband, a dad, grandfather, and let our listeners learn a little bit about you.
Mark Gordon: Yeah, no, it's an honor. Thanks so much. Yeah. You know, I'm, I just turned 60 years old, so I just, even hearing myself say that is kind of like really? 'Cause I don't feel it. Well, some days my body does. My spirit never feels it. But...
Warren Mainard: I feel the same way at 45 years old! I'm like, holy cow, how is this happening.
Mark Gordon: Right? And so, but yeah. So I've been married to my wife, Sandy, for 37 years. And we have three amazing adult kids. And they are all married. And then our middle daughter, Jaylene and her husband Zach, have two children. So we're grandparents. And, the little granddaughter, Violet, is three and a half. And her little brother, Jude, is about 11 months. So he's just going to be turning a year. And, boy, they're the joy of my life. People ask me, is it that much better being a grandpa? And I say, oh, yeah! I get the best, all the best parts, right? The best pieces.
Warren Mainard: Yep, yep.
Mark Gordon: At times, with those kids. And so we're all very fortunate that our family all live in our area where we live here in Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada. And we have them close by and we have great relationships with them. And I just don't take that for granted. It's an awesome blessing to us. I grew up in a pastor's home and a, but in the era where if your family was not in order, then you weren't a good leader. You weren't worthy of the call, if you will. And so my dad was very much a task master. He was very harsh sometimes in his anger. And we reconciled and he made good before he passed on. He's in heaven now, but I just want to say that, you know, this: the relationship was reconciled for sure, but I'm just saying that he didn't know better.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: One thing I've discovered is that we're not very good at passing on legacy to the next generation. Especially that era. They didn't teach us how to be dads. They didn't teach us how to be men. There was a persona that was expected. You worked hard, you did what you're supposed to do, you get a good education, and you're going to be fine. But they didn't teach us how to communicate, how to emote in an appropriate way. And so what happened was is I grew up actually, rejecting all of that faith, everything to do. I hated the church. I hated God because that was my representation.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And in my rebellion, I, it led to drug addiction and alcoholism. And when I met my wife Sandy, I was steep into that. And I was not a good guy. Just, that's not self abasing. I'm just, I was not in a good shape. My heart was broken. I put walls up around my heart, and because of that, I made decisions from the walls instead of who I really was, who God designed me to be. And, so, we had a hard first few years. And my son was born almost right away and he was... I remember holding this little baby and he just, it really impacted me, Warren. Like, I just thought: wow, like, I got to give this little guy a chance that maybe I didn't have or whatever. And this sense of responsibility came over me. I'd never felt before. It wasn't enough at that moment to change much. But it was the ignition for the fire that started; a little wick and it started to flow. And when he was about two years old, Sandy and I actually separated. And, I went off a thousand kilometers, or sorry, you're in the states about 800 miles away.
Warren Mainard: Yep.
Mark Gordon: And took a job. And I still had my addiction issues and everything and she had planned on not coming because of that. I dropped my son off, two years old at my parents' place in another town. So here we are, spread out across Western Canada. And long story short, I had a gentleman that invited me to a businessmen's breakfast and it was a Christian thing. And at that breakfast, I gave my heart to the Lord. Very powerfully he came upon me. I was literally about to get up and leave because I could feel something happening inside me. And I... but he, the pastor, put his hand on my shoulder just as I was about to bolt, and I just broke down and had cried and cried for a couple hours. By the time I was up and knew what was going on, all the guys had left except for a few that stayed with me to pray for me.
Warren Mainard: Wow. Yeah.
Mark Gordon: I get in the car with this pastor and he's giving me a ride back to the place I was staying. And he says to me... I said, "How am I going to tell my wife this? She has no exposure, she doesn't understand. All she's ever heard about church is my, or God, is my bitterness. How am I going to explain to her?"
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And I said, "I don't even know if she's coming. Like, I don't know if she's, if we're together yet, or still or whatever." And he very wisely said, "Sometimes you just got to say it, Mark, and trust God with the results." Okay. So I get back to the house and I'm taking a while on this 'cause it's important.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: I called my wife and I said, "I don't know how to tell you this, but I've made a commitment to God and I believe it's going to change our lives. I'd like to try again." She starts crying on the other end and my wife wasn't a crier, she was a tough girl. She grew up in a very tough home with bikers around all the time and, Hell's Angels and all kinds of things. So she grew up very tough and she was not about to, you know, and I didn't know what she, how she was going to react, but she starts crying and I says, "Why are you crying?" She says, "This morning your dad phoned me and he led me to Jesus over the phone." And when we worked out the time difference, it was within the same half hour that we both a, 800 miles apart, we both gave our hearts to the Lord .
Warren Mainard: Wow. And it was your dad that led her to Christ?
Mark Gordon: Yeah. Amazing, isn't it?
Warren Mainard: That is amazing. Yeah. Wow.
Mark Gordon: And so, long story short, we never looked back. That started our healing journey. There was still years I, that I was now sober, but I still acted like a drunk. And, took a few years for God to really transform and incarnate his life into mine. And, but boy, a few years later after that, we're in, starting youth ministry and starting, pioneering type ministries and just, never looked back. God's been good to us.
Warren Mainard: Wow. That's an a remarkable story and thank you so much for sharing that and just being transparent about some of those struggles. I think one of the first things that sticks out to me about that story that I think really lends itself well to what we're talking about today is here you had your dad, who, for the best that I could tell from just hearing your story, you said, he is a pastor, he loves God, he knows the Bible, but yet he really struggled to understand what it is like to be a dad. That there, you can know the Bible, you can know theology, and still really suck at relationships.
Mark Gordon: Totally.
Warren Mainard: And that's a great reminder because sometimes people think, oh, well, you're a minister, you're a pastor, or you're just a Christian. And therefore that automatically means you know how to do relationships well.
Mark Gordon: Right. And I think that, Warren, that has hurt us.
Warren Mainard: Yes, yes.
Mark Gordon: It has hurd church, it has hurt families because we have this expectation that when we say a prayer, that our whole life's going to be better. Unless you are doers of the Word, unless you apply those principles of the Word and learn how to allow them to come into your heart and life to transform you, they aren't much value. Like we need to understand that we have to be intentional in our relationships. And that's why even we're going to talk about the book here in a minute, but that's why I wrote the book, because people don't know how to relate. They don't know how to have relationships. I've seen it over and over and over in my ministry. I've been a pastor for the last 28 years, 30 years of my life here in different roles in different ministries. But, in the last 16, I've been a lead pastor of a church here in Kelowna. And I've seen over and over families in crisis, whether they're Christians or not, families in crisis that didn't know how, their parents didn't pass on a legacy of how to relate well with each other. And they didn't seem to have a blueprint that kind of pulled the principles together into an actionable way, which is why I appreciate what you are doing with your IMPACT ministry, because we can't take for granted that we all know how to do this. And I believe that the first relationship we learn to relate with is God.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And when that comes into order, then you start to see your horizontal relationships start to work out. But that's not just knowing that there's a God or believing there's a God. It is actually relating with him, hearing his voice, knowing that he's hearing your's. He knows your heart. And I think that that's where it starts. And as we do that, then we can go and we can start to learn how to relate to our wives, and our kids and whatnot. We have to be intentional with our relationships.
Warren Mainard: Yeah, yeah. No doubt. I don't think it's, there's any surprise or coincidence that when Jesus instructed his disciples to pray, the first two words that he says is "our Father."
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: There's something about the impact that dads have on their children and on their family spiritually.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And how that's a reflection of the relationship that we have with God.
Mark Gordon: Absolutely.
Warren Maianrd: And to know him as a Father, not just as a Creator, not just as...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...a celestial dictator, but really as an intimate relationship with God.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: What's more beautiful than that? And so you've mentioned the book, you mentioned that you did many years doing youth ministry the last 16 years as a lead pastor. You've also done a lot of coaching and workshops around the subjects of relationships, marriage, parenting, leadership. And now, this book that you have written is really, in many ways, the culmination of a lot of that...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...knowledge and experience that you've been teaching for years. So the title of the book is Relationship Matters: The Essential Guide to Building Strong Families and Fostering Healthy Relationships.
Mark Gordon: Right.
Warren Mainard: So, walk me through a little bit of what that book is and why it's helpful for men and women both.
Mark Gordon: Yeah. So how it's written, I broke it into to kind of three sections. And I actually use the syllabus of a House if, and contractors will understand this. Well, most of us understand, that if you want to build a house that's going to last and stand the test of time, stand in the storms, right. You get those northwest storms going off the Sound there, you need a house that's going to withstand those storms. And so to build that, that house needs to have three elements: a healthy foundation, a very strong framework, and a sturdy roof. And if you have those three things, the rest is like room separation and decoration. But those three things are what you need for that house to last. Well, in the same way, if you want a family that's going to last, if you want a home that's going to last, if you want a relationship that's going to last, you need a healthy foundation. You need a strong framework. The strong framework is the agreement on how you're going to work together, function together. And then you need a sturdy roof. That's the covering. And I'm going to talk about that in a minute 'cause that one is, I think is probably the root of most of our struggles in our parenting and in our families: is that we don't understand what real authority is. But we, so I wrote this book with that syllabus in mind. So it's really a blueprint for you to build a strong family and to be able to have healthy and fostering healthy relationships. Because relationships are central to everything. Really, if you think about it, whether it's business, whether it's your neighbors, whether it's your family, whether it's even your, in the book I even say, even if you're by yourself on the top of a mountain somewhere, you still have to learn how to relate to yourself and how to relate to the mountain and your surroundings. We all have that one thing in common. We all have to relate to someone. And so, because of that, I really believe, because everything flows out of relationship. And by the way, including, our relationship with God, because he created us for a relationship; that was his intent was to create us so that we could relate to him, so that, because he is love, he needed someone to love. And so, he literally created us out of relationship. And so I just think it's foundational to all we do. So this book splits that up into the three sections, what we cover: what is five pillars of a healthy foundation. You know, things like trust, communication, honor, authenticity, honesty. Those are all pillars that have to go into a relationship. And you think about maybe back to when you're dating or maybe there's some young single guys that listen to this podcast; you're dating, you want to impress that person that you kind of have an attraction to. And sometimes we will present, and especially guys, we present a persona that kind of projects us looking like men. We want to be men's men. We want to project some kind of persona to win that woman. The problem is, if it's not authentic, once we're in the relationship and then we get married, all of us... I mean, I've heard so many couples tell me, well, he just isn't the same person as I married.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: Well, of course, because we're always evolving, we're always growing. But we also, because we weren't necessarily authentic in our beginning stages. And so my hope with this book is that people will learn and dive into those pillars. What are they about? How do I... for example, in the trust, when I talk about trust equity, it's no different than your financial equity. If you make deposits into your bank account, you'll have money to withdraw. But if you only ever make withdrawals, eventually you're going to be bankrupt and you'll have nothing left and you'll, you can't have any. In the same way in a relationship, if you make trust withdrawals only, you're never going to have any equity to be able to draw on that bank account when you need it. So we have to learn as men to make intentional deposits into the trust bank. A lot of times, I think we just kind of go through life and we hope that our family stays in our wake and we pull them along with us. We get busy with work. We, our identity is so wrapped up in what we do instead of who we are. And so a lot of times we get caught up in all that. We get busy with our buddies, fishing and hunting and all these things.
Warren Mainard: Yep.
Mark Gordon: And we're not realizing necessarily that we're making withdrawals of the trust bank every time we do that. Now, especially when we start to feel like we're being maybe nagged at a bit. Maybe we're being challenged a bit. Now all of a sudden we have to kind of be a little more covert.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: Well, all of a sudden we're breaching the pillar that's called honesty. And boy, is it ever, come on, we can all be honest. It is so easy. Those little white lies, those little omissions. But that all breaks down each pillar. You see, every pillar I mentioned is interacting with each other all the time.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: And so, when we don't have those... so for guys, I lay it out very clearly. If you look at this, it's a blueprint and guys understand blueprints. We don't follow directions very good, but we're really good at blueprints. And so it's a blueprint to build those things. If you are working with your spouse and with your kids at building those five pillars all the time, you're going to have a healthy culture in your home.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Right?
Warren Mainard: No, that's great. So I mean, this seems like it could be a fantastic book for an individual or a couple just getting started. They want to start out on the right foot. And obviously if you start with a good foundation, you're going to build something...
Mark Gordon: Right.
Warren Mainard: ...more sustaining and lasting. So talk maybe to that, to the person or to the couple that's about to get married or has been married for a few years. What are some examples of some ways that you can really foster that trust? You can put more deposits of trust and honesty into the bank account.
Mark Gordon: Great question. There's a few things that create trust deposits. One is transparency. You know, the word "intimacy," if you slow it down, you might have heard this before, but it's "into me, you see." Into me, you see. If you want emotional intimacy with your spouse or with your kids, you have to be transparent. There's no other way. And I know for myself, because I had so much pain in my heart, it was very difficult for me to show. I had fear of, that a shame base there. Shame, guilt is I did something wrong. Shame is I am something wrong. And so, there was that shame base there. In fact, by the way, I teach an anger management class. Did you know that the shame is actually the greater cause of anger than any other thing in our lives? We get angry to protect from anybody seeing that shame. So with guys, we shut down and when we shut down, when we close off like that, we're not transparent, then it actually is making trust withdrawals. So when you are transparent, when you can explain what's going on in your heart, and by the way, even if you can't, even if you don't know. I don't know how to say this, but you actually make an attempt to tell your spouse and say, I don't even know how to tell you this, but I'm just in turmoil in here, what's, you know, in my heart. What's going to happen is you're going to find they're going to open up and they're going to want to try and help you get through that.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: But what we do is we shut down and then we start getting mad because they're asking us, what's wrong? What's wrong? Nothing, nothing.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: And obviously there's something wrong, right?
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And so we tend to avoid and run away. So transparency is one of those ways that you can build in the trust bank, build it up.
Warren Mainard: So Mark, without, I hope this doesn't get too heavy too quickly, but...
Mark Gordon: No, that's fine.
Warren Mainard: I think about...
Mark Gordon: Let's know where we're going.
Warren Mainard: I think about, at least in the United States, I would assume it's pretty similar in Canada, but in the US so many young men have had some sort of struggle with sexual addiction, pornography, really kind of an unhealthy understanding and identity of sex. And so they're listening to this or they're thinking about these ideas of being transparent, and they're like, if I'm transparent, it's over. Like, this thing is done. I mean, I can think of a number of occasions, but in one particular, a good friend of mine that was in ministry and was just struggling with an addiction to pornography, his wife had no idea.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: She had no concept for it. Like, just couldn't even imagine that a godly man...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...could have an addiction to pornography. And I was able to walk them through that process, but there was an incredible amount of fear...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...about taking that step of transparency.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: So how do you negotiate kind of the upfront cost of transparency and then the long term benefit of that?
Mark Gorodn: Right. So well, first and foremost, you don't start with the biggest thing first. So, okay. You got, you start to have a kind of a lifestyle of transparency. In other words, you just get transparent in the little things.
Warren Mainard: Okay.
Mark Gordon: And mostly with your emotions, with your heart, or with how you feel, even how you feel about them. Often men find it very awkward to communicate in an expressive love way.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And so that works against you. You have to be very intentional. You guys, I always tell guys there, it's no excuse to say, I just don't know how 'cause we got enough stuff on the internet now. We got enough stuff, there's enough brothers in arms together that we could actually discover those things. We don't...
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: ...actually have to be in that place anymore. We have enough information, but start with the small stuff. Transparency on the bigger stuff. What I usually say, this is why your ministry is so important, is when there's something at that level where it's an addiction to pornography. What you want to do is you need to be, you need to start being transparent somewhere. And part of the problem I've found in the North American church particularly, is we've kind of made it taboo to talk about these things.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: And we've made it very risky because we tend to write people off if they've had struggle.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Whereas what we need is transparency actually allows you to be open. It actually takes that shame away. See, our concept is that if it's found out, then we're shamed, but really, shame is defeated through transparency.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: And so what you want to do is start somewhere. So a trusted brother, a friend that's closer than a brother, somebody that you can... a relationship coach or even a pastoral coach that you can, have built relationship. And because you're practicing transparency, you can come with that kind of thing. And I'm just going to get transparent just to model it. Many, several years ago, many, many years ago, but I was already in ministry, had been in ministry a while, I was struggling with some pornography. I found myself, I don't even know how. It found me more than I found it, but it found me, 'cause the enemy will use anything to take you out. And your brain gets hardwired to that screen. It's more than just the pornography.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: It's actually a comfort. It's, you're trying to self-soothe, if you will.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: From the stresses. And so it's actually not, it's one, it's no different than me drinking to medicate or me doing drugs to medicate. It's a self-medication that will be the carrot that's dangled, but as soon as you bite of the apple, it turns on you instantly. And so what happened was, is I didn't, I never wanted to, I don't want, I didn't want that to affect my marriage. I didn't want it to affect my fathering. I didn't want it to affect my ministry.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And it was that order, first and foremost: I didn't want it to affect my relationship with God. And that's the one thing I discovered in that process, by the way, is that Jesus never rejected me. He never shamed me. He never condemned me. He had nothing but grace and love and acceptance for me, even as I was confessing it to him. So if you want the first place to be transparent, it's with God.
Warren Mainard:: It's with God, yeah.
Mark Gordon: Because if you can be, he knows anyway, if you can be transparent with him, it really helps lift that burden off of you so that you can then be transparent with the next person.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: So for me, I went to a fellow pastor. I went to a pastor I knew I could trust. Someone that I, it was a leader in our city and a leader to leaders in our city. And I went, I asked him if we could go for a walk, and I just confessed it to him. You know the first words out of his mouth was? He says, "I just want you to know before I say anything else, my respect for you just went up a thousand percent."
Warren Mainard: Yep. Yep.
Mark Gordon: It was like, whoa.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. I can definitely identify with that as a pastor over the years saying that to other men.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Hey, listen, the fact that you're willing to have this conversation with me tells me that you are on the right track. And I respect that.
Mark Gordon: Right.
Warren Mainard: So, Mark, I love this because here's kind of maybe the nugget that I'm gleaning from this. We've got this idea, especially in the context of marriage, but this can apply in a number of different environments. But we've got this idea of, okay, I know I need to tell her this thing, whatever it is, whether it's pornography or an addiction to gambling orjust simply...
Mark Gordon: I lied about being with my friends.
Warren Mainard: Yeah, a duplicitous lifestyle of some kind.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And so the idea is obviously you're commanded by scripture to confess to God. And scripture tells us that if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So by all means, we should go to God first for our own spiritual cleansing. But what I hear you saying, and I think this is such a great little piece, is that there's actually a wonderful practice of confession
Mark Gordon: Yes.
Warren Mainard: That we should implement into our lives. We're we practice by confessing to God, we find a counselor that we can trust and we practice confessing to him.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Maybe we find a group of brothers that we can lean on. We practice confessing to them. And then maybe by the time you actually confess that to your wife, it's the second, third, or fourth time you've made that confession.
Mark Gordon: And I will suggest this, by that time, you've probably overcome it.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Because you've been transparent and open. See, because transparency will overcome the problem. You see, the problem isn't the pornography, it's the shame that comes with it.
Warren Mainard: Yes.
Mark Gordon: If you overcome that, I don't need pornography anymore.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: I don't need that to soothe my soul. I have Jesus to soothe my soul. You see, that's the other thing, even as believers, why are we looking to fleshly things to satisfy us and to soothe us when we have Jesus that will soothe us? And that's a practice. You said the word practice, that is practicing over and over relating and connecting with Jesus, then that thing will go away. So by the time you get to that fourth confession...
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: ...you're now confessing something that happened in the past and not something that's happening present. And that it may be easier for the spouse to receive and be able to hear, oh, I'm, why didn't you tell me you were struggling? Why didn't you? They're, going to have all those questions, but it's goinig to take the sting out of it. And the other thing is, through that process, you're learning how to emote properly. You're learning how to communicate properly. You're learning how to tell the story.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And so when you tell it to her, you're telling it complete. It's not this awkward blurb and out this and that. And so I have had where guys have then confessed to the wife, and then I get together with both of them and I get to, or I'll have a session with the two of them.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And I talk, and I help the wife understand what pornography is. It's not their attraction to another woman.
Warren Maianrd: Right.
Mark Gordon: It's this medication thing. It's this self-soothing thing that is, that the enemy uses to hook our brains in. And so, and then they get some understanding and they understand it. Now they're in conversation all the time about it. The transparency's there, because every... listen, I'll put it this way, every hidden thing erodes your relationship. Every hidden thing erodes your relationship, whether it's with God, whether it's with yourself or whether it's with a brother or sister, or whether it's with your spouse or your kids. Every hidden thing will absolutely erode it. It's making withdrawals from the trust bank without even knowing you're making those withdrawals.
Warren Mainard: Yeah, I love that. And, we live on the east side of Seattle, and typically east siders are known as affluent, successful, good looking, overachieving. When I first moved here from South Carolina eight years ago to plant a church in Bellevue...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...it was intimidating.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Because I'd be sitting in a coffee shop in Issaquah, and it's like everybody around me has the most impressive life that I've ever been around.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And what I began to realize is that, there's this massive disconnect between kind of this rich, young ruler persona; that I've got it all together and I've got the perfect wife, the perfect kids, and then deep, deep, deep brokenness...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...that is taking place...
Mark Gordon: You don't have to peel too many layers back to find that broken.
Warren Mainard: Yeah, and so...
Mark Gordon: We are also in an affluent town here. It's very circular to Seattle. We're big Seahawks fans up here, so.
Warren Mainard: Oh yeah. Go hawks.
Mark Gordon: My son and I have been to a few games and yeah, it's very similar feel in our cities. And so yeah, I get, but the thing is, is it's all veneer. There's no substance to it necessarily. I'm generalizing, obviously there's some healthy families, but I'm just saying, a lot of times it's all, in fact, their identity is actually been put in that instead of in their, who they really are. And so that facade becomes their protection, but it also becomes their identity.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: So when it gets crumbled, if it's threatened in any way, that's why they can't be transparent.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: 'Cause if it gets threatened in any way, they're going to be seen as a failure.
Warren Mainard: Well, and that's, I think that's one of the big challenges to these ideas that you're introducing is that, when everybody around you seems like they've got this perfect facade, it's very difficult to say, okay, I'm going to be the authentic one.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: I'm going to be the transparent one, the honest one. I used to say it was like everybody around me looked like they were the family that is used in the dentistry stock photos: just good looking, perfect smiles, healthy, all those kind of things. But that kinda leads me to this idea of how do you, or maybe just kind of talk about the importance of being a part of a community of people...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...who are willing to open up about their brokenness?
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: To be in a, an authentic community that facilitates this kind of openness.
Mark Gordon: Yeah. I can't... it's so important. And it absolutely, in fact, right in our vision statement of our church, it says the word 'authentics' in there. And I know that the word authentic and maybe authenticity has been maybe overused sometimes. If it, I always say, if it's a value written on the wall and not your heart, it's not going to do you much good. So you need to really value that authenticity. What I've found is that when I'm authentic, I attract authentic. So when I'm being authentic, it's actually authentic people that tend to come my way. And the other thing that happens is people that have the facade, they'll never do it in the crowd. They'll always be the one that has to look the best or be the best. But I can tell you more times than not, when I'm speaking at men's retreats or at conferences and stuff, it'll be the ones I think have it all together that I think would never ask me for advice that pull me aside and say, "Can I talk to you? I'm really struggling with something."
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And I'm like, whoa. Why did you want to see me? I'm not one of the big name guys here. What do you... but it's because they, well 'cause we just feel like we can trust you. Why? Why do they just feel like they can trust me? It's not 'cause I'm all a great guy. It's 'cause I'm authentic. It's 'cause I'm real. They know what they see is what they get. And I'm going to be real with who I am, including my struggles. And so I think that it's so important to find a group. I would rather be in a small group of people like that than a large group of together people.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: I would rather be amongst the broken than amongst the 'fixed.' And when I say fixed, I use that word intentionally. They think they fixed it with this and they fixed it with that, but nothing's changed. .
Warren Mainard: Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And so I would much rather be with an authentic community that is broken and can walk in that. And I think it's important, the old African, proverb that it takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to, for us to find that authenticity. We can't do it in a silo.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: In fact, silos are probably your first indicator you're not being authentic.
Warren Mainard: That's a good one.
Mark Gordon: If you feel like you got to hide, if you feel like you got to be in a silo or you can't trust anybody, it's time to look in your heart.
Warren Mainard: No, I love that. I was reminded of, you talked about that quote, the African proverb there, there's another one that I think really relates well, and it's if you want to go far... no... if you want to go fast, go alone.
Mark Gordon: Right.
Warren Mainard: If you want to go far, go together.
Mark Gordon: Right.
Warren Mainard: And I think that's kind of a big deal around here is that we're very individualistic.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And it's easier to just do this thing without being slowed down by relationships.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: But I mean, you run hard enough and long enough in your career without investing in relationships...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...and you will look around and you'll say, I'm completely alone.
Mark Gordon: Totally, totally. And you'll wonder how you got there and the crushing weight of that is going to be, it won't be worth what you've earned or what you've made in that time. It's so true, Warren, that we, we've got to be connected. We were just, listen, you can't take an original design and make it something else.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: I can't take a smart car and pull a semi trailer trailer because it won't pull it 'cause it wasn't designed to pull it. But I can take a Kenworth tractor and I can pull a the semi trailer, right. I can pull that trailer. You can't, God designed us for relationship and connection.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: You can't avoid it. Now let's add in some jet fuel on this problem: social media.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Online world where you can actually have relationships without having relationships.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Because I got a 'like,' I have relationships, I have a thousand friends when actually, I got zero friends.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Because we're not really relating, and by the way, you can't relate in 140 characters. So you... I believe that as each generation is passing here, it's so important men, to wake up now. If you are not the main voice in your kids' life, then they will be pulled in every direction possible. You must be the main voice. And that's why you need this solid foundation, this healthy foundation and these pillars that we're talking about. You need to be authentic because your kids need you to be authentic.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: They need that authentic connection so that they know what connection feels like. Otherwise they're going to think that it's on a on a headset through a game on a console. And that is just, that's not relating. And so I think we're crippling the next generation to, on how to relate to each other for two ways. One is we're not teaching them or modeling it, and second, we're letting the world model it. We're letting social media model it, and we all, we don't have to look too far to see the confusing messages we get from that platform.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And so I, I just really feel this urgency probably is why I finally wrote the book that's been in my heart for years, is because I feel this urgency to empower people.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: And to that end, and because time's going, I don't know how long we have.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to say, I knew this was going to happen, but 45 minutes flew by and there's still so much to talk about.
Mark Gordon: I know.
Warren Mainard: But so as we wrap up, Mark, you said to me before we jumped on this podcast, you said, you're, you just turned 60 years old and you're really looking at this next decade as the decade of significance and legacy.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Really trying to leave a legacy behind of the things that you've learned along the way. I know we've got a handful of guys that probably would fall into that category so if you could just in like, you know, 30 seconds, give a word of encouragement...
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...to those guys.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Maybe as it relates to relationship, maybe they, they've been married for 30 years, maybe they've got grandkids, but what can they do to pass on the value of relationships that they've learned over the years as well?
Warren Mainard: Yeah. And well, first of all, you have way more in you than you know you have. And the younger generation don't know what they don't know: what you take for granted.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: What you think is obvious is not necessarily obvious to the next generation. So first and foremost, they need you. So I encourage those that are my age and up to be intentional. Be intentional with blessing down, blessing backwards in the generations. And, there is power in words.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: This isn't a blessing, buying more gifts for the grandkids or spoiling them. I'm talking about look them right in the eye. And literally, I'm going to use the word prophesy over them.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Speak destiny to them. Tell them how important they are. Tell them the value that they have.
Warren Mainard: Wow.
Mark Gordon: That they are so valuable in the eyes of God, in your eyes, in their parents' eyes, in everyone's eyes and tell them why they're special. Don't say, oh, you're so special. Tell them what makes them special so that they can start to form an identity through the words that you're speaking over them.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mark Gordon: That is what we can do. Now I'm calling this the decade of destiny. I want to leave a legacy to my family and to my grandkids, and to others, to my community. And so even I've made changes to allow space for that in time, you have to schedule it. You have to create margins in your life so that you can do the important things. So let your wise noes make room for your great yeses so that you can actually have the time and the margin to be able to invest in the previous generation or the next generation that you're coming down to and make that available to your church community, to your neighborhood. I have, all the time, I have people from my community asking me for advice or wisdom or help in whatever different things. That is the joy of having the years of experience that you have, is that you now get to pass it on. Don't take it to the grave with you.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mark Gordon: Leave everything on the field. Right. We're Huskies fans and Seahawks fans.
Warren Mainard: That's right.
Mark Gordon: Let's leave it all on the field.
Warren Mainard: There you go. Yeah.
Mark Gordon: Let's leave it all on the field, guys. Let's not, hold anything back. And I just want to say, if you've had struggles in your relationship and you've been married for a long time, just find the companionship, reconnect. I always tell parents, don't connect before you direct. So you want to find, just find a reconnection. Don't try and solve all the problems. Don't try and rehash all the things that you have regrets about. Just start to connect today. Start new connection and find those connecting points. The other things will take care of themselves.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you, Mark. That's fantastic. I love that nugget of just being intentional.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: To make some of those familial blessings. As a dad, I need to periodically sit down with my son who's 15, my daughter who's 18.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: I need to look them in the eye and speak a blessing over them.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: To say, I see this in you.
Mark Gordon: Absolutely.
Warren Mainard: I see God in you.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: I see these characteristics, I see these giftings.
Mark Gordon: Yes.
Warren Mainard: And I believe that God has something great for you because of that. And then as I get older, I get the joy of doing that with grandkids.
Mark Gordon: Yeah.
Warren Maindar: Maybe even one day great grandkids, but what a wonderful encouragement because that's, I mean, it's free. It doesn't cost you a thing. You don't have to take them to Hawaii, you don't have to buy them the greatest technological gift out there. But like you said, that one thing could stick with them for decades if done right.
Mark Gordon: It's interesting because you said, Warren, it's free, but it's also the most valuable.
Warren Mainard: Yes.
Mark Gordon: Your most valued possessions. It's your most valuable asset and yet it's free. Isn't that just the grace of God right there?
Warren Mainard: Yeah. I mean if, yeah, if you could...
Mark Gordon: It's amazing.
Warren Mainard: ...summarize up the Gospel any more than that. The best things in life are free, but infinitely valuable. And that's...
Mark Gordon: Totally.
Warren Mainard: That's it. Well, Mark, thank you so much for being on this podcast. Before we go, let our listeners know how they can follow you, find you, and also get an access to your new book "Relationship Matters."
Mark Gordon: So, mark gordon.ca 'cause I'm Canadian, so mark gordon.ca. If you go .com, you're gonna get the producer of Grey's Anatomy and other shows. He's got the same name. I still get show ideas sent to me on email once in a while.
Warren Mainard: I love it.
Mark Gordon: It's kind of funny. But markgordon.ca and on there we'll have links to my social media. It'll have also the book you can order right off of there. But if you're in the States, even Amazon, you could go on Amazon and order the, I think the ebook is now on there. The rest will follow soft cover hardcover, but yeah, just markgordon.ca or Mark Gordon Relationship Matters and it'll start populating your Google purchase.
Warren Maianrd: Fantastic, Mark, thank you so much. God bless you.
Mark Gordon: Thanks, Warren.
Warren Mainard: And thank you for making an impact where you are in Canada and around the world.
Mark Gordon: Thank you. Thank you. You too.
