Warren Mainard: Hello and welcome back to another edition of the IMPACT Players Podcast. My name is Warren Mainard. I am the Executive Director of IMPACT Players, an organization dedicated to inspiring men to be great husbands, fathers, and leaders. And one man who is joining us today is certainly on the same page when it comes to that cause: my friend John Camerer from Man in the Mirror. John, how are you doing today?
John Camerer: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Warren. Excited to share with the guys and see what God has for us today.
Warren Mainard: Absolutely. So John, we'll get into a little bit of your story in just a minute and how that relates to Man in the Mirror, but for those that are unfamiliar, what is Man in the Mirror and what is your role with them?
John Camerer: So Man in the Mirror is a national ministry that serves churches. Primarily, we serve churches, we serve pastors, ministry leaders; and ideally, equipping men, transforming their lives. And Man in the Mirror has been existence since 1990. We're a national ministry like I mentioned, and we are in 36 states with about 80 area directors around the community. And primarily my role as an Area Director is I go in and help pastors and ministry leaders to develop a discipleship pathway for every man in the church. And that's primarily done through the men's ministry. So we have a model that we use. We have a book called 'No Man Left Behind' Book that we draw principles and concepts out of. And so we just go in and see where the churches are. Really, I come as a consultant, I raise my own support. We don't charge the churches anything. And look at what they're doing, what have they been successful with? A lot of churches are doing great work out there with men and a lot of them don't have anything going. So I come in and just kind of walk them through the process to see how we can help them get more men engaged in their church. In fact, the goal is to get all their men engaged in their church.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. So let's just dive right into that for a second because, in many ways, I think the church has drifted away from really focusing on the men.
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: In many ways it seems like men have kind of been an afterthought and there's a lot of emphasis on children's ministry, student ministry, young adults, young couples...
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...single moms, all those kind of things. What is the importance of reaching men? What does that do for a church when it begins to reach men?
John Camerer: Yeah, it's powerful. As we know, that often when churches aren't engaging their men, that you see it within their family, within the community and within the church. And it's so powerful to have men engaged in the relationship with their church and their family. And what I've found is that often when we see men tha are isolating right now, or not engaging, it affects every aspect of their life. And also the church because of the fact that God has called us as men to step up and be leaders in our homes and our communities. And if we don't equip men to do that, if we stand back on the sideline and wait for somebody else to do that, it's not gonna happen. You know, Warren, it's tough to engage guys. Guys are busy, they're doing stuff. They don't want to sit down and do a Bible study, more or less be authentic with another guy and start talking about things like pornography or marriage or finances. And when you get men to be able to do that and you get men to connect and want to learn more about who God is and who their identity is in Christ, it's so powerful. It's so powerful to see transformed lives in that manner and doing so, I think that you really prepare the family, you prepare the church, and you prepare for community to be able to lead in that manner that's going to have a tremendous effect within the family. And I just think that we're called, as I said before, to be leaders in our family. And how do we do that If we don't know? Often our mom and dads, or our dads didn't teach us how to do that. Our society definitely downplays the role of a man. We're passive, we're stupid. We're all addicted to pornography and all other stuff that comes along with the societal view of men. So I think that what Man in the Mirror does, and I think what IMPACT Players does is we help give men the right perspective on who they are and who their identity is. And when we do that, then we have a tremendous opportunity to speak into the next generation, which I think is another area that was really needed to look at as the next generation of our men.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. You just tapped on something that I think is really big right now, you talked about identity. A I heard someone else present on this a while back, but they said that really all people are looking for the answers to three big things, identity, belonging, and purpose.
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Who am I? Where do I belong? Who are my people? And what am I here for? What's my purpose in life?
John Camerer: Right, right, right.
Warren Mainard: And are men any different?
John Camerer: No! They're different in a different perspective.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
John Camerer: But you know, when I hear you say that, Warren, I think of in Ephesians 2:10 where it talks about how God... that we're creating in workmanship, we're creating God's image and Jesus has prepared ahead of time as good works that we're to walk into. So men, we have a pathway set for us if we just follow that. And what is so encouraging to me is that God prepared that ahead time for us, but often we miss out on those activities. We miss out on those blessings because we're not willing to do or step into what Christ, how Christ has created us and where our identity is. And we're... how are you going to find out about your identity unless you understand how God created us, study the Bible, pray, read, fellowship. It's not rocket scientists to find God's will, but it takes intentionality and it takes efforts to do that. But when you do that, it's amazing. I mean, I could sit here and tell you stories out of stories about guys that have lives have been transformed, families been transformed from the prior ministry I was involved as a result of finding that identity.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. Well, talking about stories, let's dive into to your story a little bit first. So, before John Camerer, director Man of the Mirror Ministries, you're a son, you're a husband, you're dad. How has all of the ministry that you've done helped shape who you are?
John Camerer: Yeah, it's been quite a journey. Starting out, you know growing up, I grew up in a home with alcoholic parents that were abusive to each other, but not really to us other than being neglectful and not being there. And at a very early age, I struggled to see who I was. And through that course of that, I was a good athlete. So that's what kept me focused and in school and that's what took me to college. But growing up, I didn't know what it meant to be a man. I had no idea other than through sports and oorah and the, whatever it took to get the job done. But what is interesting is, and what shaped me. I think that God used in the future, there was my next door neighbor, was the vice principal at Franklin High School and the football coach. And so as things got really rough around my house and things where I didn't want to even be at home at all, I would run over to their house. And he took me in with open arms. I went camping with that family. They had a son that was like three years younger than me. So as they, as we grew up, we were able to do more things together. But I saw what it looked like to be a functional family. I saw a man that cared for his family and worked hard. And so I didn't have that in my own family, but I had somebody mentoring. And then I went away to college and, met Christ my junior year at Pacific Lutheran University. And God got a hold of my heart. And he, it was my junior year and there was all kinds of circumstances around that. But he took some things away. He took baseball away from me from my senior year, which was devastating and that's a story by itself. I became ineligible from a year prior to an injury. But God took that time to mold me and say, who are you? He took away a girlfriend relationship. And it comes back to that whole, who are you in Christ? Who are you? What is your identity? So he built that foundation. And then, I met a wonderful woman, my wife Susan. And we got married in 1984. And went to work in the corrections department, worked in prisons and jails for about 15 years before God birthed the vision for a ministry called Vision House. And that ministry is to homeless single men, women, and children. And that was really as a result of us watching a movie called God Bless the Child. One evening in our bedroom, we turned the TV on, and there was a movie that was depicting a mom becoming homeless, really no fault of her own. Her husband left her, couldn't afford an apartment, moved into a low income housing and just showed her going through the cycle of homelessness. And eventually she ended up losing her daughter. he gave her up for adoption and just broke Susan and I's heart. We had our six month old son next to us. And we said, does this really happen? I mean, I know me working in prison and jails, I saw men get out and women get out with nowhere to go. But this was a mom that wasn't a drug addict, wasn't a prostitute, she just didn't have any resources. So Susan and I prayed that night and we said, "Lord, if you want us to engage some way, just put it on our heart." And the next morning I woke up excited and realized it wasn't the caffeine I had the night before. And again, walking, knocking on doors, shelters, transitional housing units, churches, and found out there was a huge need in our community for housing for homeless single moms. So that was the birth of it. A year later, we opened our first home with men recovering from drugs and alcohol cause that was my background working as a correction counselor. So we started. The first four years we ran Men's Home for Recovery and served them. And then in 1990 or 1994, the true vision really came about where we opened our first home for homeless single moms. And, God just opened the door. And that's another example. It was really hard raising money to support and minister to the drug addicts and men who are alcoholic. But soon as you get into homeless single moms, it's amazing how people want to help. And that's really the reality of men's ministry when it comes down to it. It's tough. Men's ministry is a tough ministry to be in because of the fact that guys don't connect. There's not that empathy behind a guy going to a Bible study. But there's sure empathy for a mom getting off the streets and living in a housing program. But you know, what's behind that? There's a guy behind that and I really believe that we need to go upstream and fish. That we need to kind of apply the preventive medicine to the men that are causing the hurt in a lot of these women's lives that we got to see over 30 years of ministry. God blessed the ministry tremendously. Went from one or two houses to seven complexes in three different locations and 65 staff members and thrift stores, and all kinds of stuff that God opened up. Until God got my heart a year and a half ago and said, "John, I don't think I want you to stay here anymore." And that was a reality check cause you just put a burden on my heart that said, you know, you've done a great work here, but I have something else for you. And that's where Man in the Mirror came in, clicked on a job description, read the job description, and said, "Lord, this is something I can get behind and believe in." And I really want to get boots back on the ground. I wanted to get back where I was working with men and working with churches and pastors, because we use the No Man Left Behind model at our church at Highlands Community Church, where I go and we have for eight years. And I know how effective it is, and I know what results we've had at our church. And so I knew that if the Lord could open some doors for other churches that we could have some great impact with churches in the Northwest.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. That's great. And I think about, this is a story I'm sure you're very familiar with, John, but Acts chapter 16, Paul and Silas are in prison and God miraculously lets them out, but they choose to stay in order to preserve the life of the Philippian jailer. And what I love about that story, and I think relates to this idea of men's ministry, is that by saving the Philippian jailer, the end result was the jailer and his entire family were saved. And they all became followers of Jesus from that moment on. And interestingly in my studies, I believe that they became the foundation for the church in Philippi which we read about in the book of Philippians.
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Which Paul interestingly, writes to them from prison. But I love that idea that you reach the man, the likelihood of reaching the entire family is exponentially high.
John Camerer: Yeah, it's amazing.
Warren Mainard: Yeah, go ahead.
John Camerer: As you were talking, Warren, I was just thinking of a story of one of the guys that I, that Lord let me look into his life and be a part of. We had a guy that was, came to our church, really wasn't engaged. Met a guy in the hallway and he said, Hey, we have a Bible study on Saturday. It's really low key. We're going through a series on, with Pat Morley on Identity of Christ. And so we invite him and he came and we have like a half hour teaching time and then we break into small groups and have some more authentic question time around the study. And I was sitting there in that group, and we just go around and check in and got to him and he says, I don't know why I'm here. I'm about ready to divorce my wife. I don't even know how to leave my kids. And we said, well, you know what, you're in the right spot cause a lot of us are in the same spot. We're confused about life too. And if we can do life together, it's better. And so, and make a long story short, he kept coming over the years to the Bible study for about eight, nine months. He came on a regular basis, guys got connected, got guys' phone numbers, started texting guys, meeting guys. and eventually, he restored his relationship with his wife, and his kids started coming to church. And one of his kids were baptized about a year ago, and he got an opportunity to baptize him. But I was meeting with him and having coffee about a year ago, and I was talking with him and he says, you know what, John, if I would've left my wife, the damage it would've done to my kids, that, you know, my kids are honor students, they're doing great things right now, but if I would've stepped away and would've been an absent parent, how it would've devastated my wife, probably would never would've came to church. My kids definitely, probably would not. So that just gets back to the point that you were saying, Warren, is that men make a tremendous difference in their families if they choose to stay and fight, and also grow in their faith and realize they need other men in their lives.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. That's phenomenal. And I can think of so many illustrations in my own story and ministry and just even, I was reminded of it this week, yesterday, in fact, that, of a man that had attended IMPACT Breakfast for several years, but was not a believer. And we began an IMPACT cohort. It was the first cohort we started. We invited him. He decided to participate in the second study that we did, second week that we did, he prayed to receive Christ. And his, the transformation that has taken place has been so phenomenal because it's not just about him, it's about his marriage and his wife and his teenage daughter.
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And now the people that he's impacting in a number of different realms.
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: It's truly remarkable. And it just began with that one linchpin.
John Camerer: Yep.
Warren Mainard: And I think that's the idea is that, to focus on men's ministry, which is what you and I are all about, it's not about focusing on men at the exclusion of women, children and their families, but as the linchpin that might turn the tide for the entire family.
John Camerer: Yeah. That's powerful, Warren. That's powerful. And that's one thing that we really feel strongly at Man of the Mirror, is that we want to help the churches develop a discipleship culture. We want to be able to train the leaders and create a culture that will carry on beyond just one leader, because that transformation is going to take place within a church. And IMPACT Players has a great avenue to help in that area as well because some guys won't go into church. They'll come to an IMPACT breakfast or a cohort, but they're not going to go to church. But if we can get men to take that example, if they're involved with IMPACT Players, to take that back into their church and help their church to understand the importance of men's discipleship, and then get the training, get the understanding and the tools they need to effectively develop a discipleship ministry, we can impact thousands of men. Well we have, I mean, Man in the Mirror has worked with over 35,000 churches since 1990.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
John Camerer: Which impacted millions of men. And then, like you said, it's a trickle down faith and millions of wives and kids and so forth that have benefit from churches understanding the importance of men's discipleship. And I believe that you don't have to beat up on the church too much, but I just believe that sometimes it's backwards. They rely too much on the pastors to do everything and there's not enough pastors that go around. And then you rely on lay leaders, and that's great. Lay leaders need to be a part of it. But unless you equip them, unless you train them, unless you help them understand the importance, then it's just going to die off. And that's what I've seen over the years. Not only my own church, but now for the last year working with churches. One of my questions I always ask, churches says, can you kinda give me a rundown of what the men's ministries look like under your leadership? And it's ebb and flow; I've lost the leader and nothing's happening. Now something's happening. And the common theme is that there wasn't anything established that had any specific strategies or the culture wasn't created, the importance of men's ministry. And so that's one thing that we try to do because the fact that we realize there's going to be turnover in pastors and leaders. But if you can develop the strategy with men and have systems in place, then somebody else can step in to do that. And part of my job is that if something does happen, I can come back into a church and continue with the training or supporting that church in that area. But, yeah.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. So, I mean, if you're listening to this podcast or watching this YouTube and you are a pastor of a church, you need to set up an appointment with John to talk about getting a men's ministry in your church. But for those of you men who are listening to this podcast, that you're not the pastor, send this to your pastor or take an opportunity to reach out and say, you got to talk to this guy John and let him help you get this men's ministry going. So, John, give us a sneak preview. A pastor invites you to his office.
John Camerer: Right.
Warren Mainard: Talk about men's ministry. What is he going to hear? What is he going to get from that conversation?
John Camerer: Right, right. Well, first of all, anytime that I'm invited to a pastor's office or have coffee, it's an honor. Really, it is. I mean, these guys have a tough job and pastors have to be called, we know that. But they wear a lot of hats. And so, really, I'm there to support this pastor. I mean, I want to know his story. I want to know how I can walk alongside. I want to know his vision. I want to hear what his vision is for the church as well as for the men's ministry. And I want to understand what is happened in the past with the church, with men's ministry. Does he have one or two guys that are interested in discipleship in his church? And so, really a lot of us just developing a relationship at the very beginning. And from there, we progress. So we normally, as churches, if they want to engage, then we go through it. We call a action plan with a church. And so we have specific kind of steps that we start. And every church starts off different cause some churches have a lot of stuff going on, but they just need a tuneup. They just need to maybe refine some things that are happening. And often I'll hear pastor, I say, I didn't even think of that. How do you do that? And so it is just helping them to look, kind of think out of the box a little bit. And so when we, when I start working with a church, naturally, ideally is to look at, do you have anybody within leadership that I can work with? Cause the last thing I want to do is create more work for the pastor. Really. I want him, I want to hear his vision. I want to hear what he sees the men's ministry looking at. And then if we can work with a group of men or a few men to cast that vision and have rapport with them to let them know what's going on, but really allow them, those men, and let me pour into those few guys to help them understand the importance and give them some tools and skills to work with. And then eventually we just walk down until we get maybe a breakfast going or a Bible study. Andthere's a concept that we use called create, capture, and sustain within Man in the Mirror, which was part of the model. And really what that means is that when you create an event, whether it's a breakfast, or a hike or whatever, you really want to think behind, why are we doing this? What is our audience? And what do we hope the outcome is going to be? So we encourage pastors if they're going to have, or ministry of leaders, if they're going to have a breakfast, then during that breakfast, you're pointing men to the next activity. Now, I recommend starting a Bible study afterwards, a six to eight week Bible study. So the guys, when they leave there, have an action step to do. Let's engage in that Bible study afterwards and encourage men to engage. And then those who engage, that's not the end all be all. As they begin to grow, you encourage them to step into what's the next step for them. Maybe it's serving in the community, maybe it's serving as an usher. Maybe it's taking the Ephesians class they're offering at church. So the goal is to always point them into the right next step and look at what's available in your church. I mean, we could talk for hours on this process, but really it's just helping them to maybe look at it a different way.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. And a lot of that that you're talking about, it's outlined in this book written by Patrick Morley, founder of Man in the Mirror called No Man Left Behind. And John, I got to tell you, as I was kinda looking through this and working through this a little bit, there's something right at the very beginning that kind of threw me for a loop. And it says, "Men's ministry is rocket science."
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And, it says, he says, "Men's ministry is more than just pancakes and prayer on Saturday morning."
John Camerer: Yes.
Warren Mainard: What does that mean? And how do you kind of talk a pastor off of the ledge of saying like, oh, well, if it's rocket science, then I'm not a rocket scientist, so I guess I've got to...
John Camerer: Yeah, yeah.
Warren Mainard: ...I've gotta take a hard pass.
John Camerer: Yeah, if you look further though, you read a few a little bit farther along, it's really about having a plan. So just as any church plans, any event, you got to have a plan and steps and strategy and so forth. And to do that, and really, when you say rocket scientist means that you're not going to fix a guy in six weeks. You're not going to fix a guy necessarily in a year. So yeah, as you look at how are you implementing men's ministry, it's evolution process when it comes down to it. The reality is, I tell pastors that it'll take anywhere from three to five years to develop an effective men's ministry. But it doesn't mean it takes three to five years to start discipling your men. And so what I try to help pastors understand, 'cause I share this, the No Man Left Behind model, which is about a 10, 15 minutes, if they go to our website, they can actually watch the video on the presentation. But I also, I see them kind of gloss over a little bit because they, oh, man, how am I going to do all this? I always tell them, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And really, I want to come alongside where you're at this time. If it takes however long it takes.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
John Camerer: If it takes you six weeks or eight weeks to find a couple guys that maybe are interested in discipleship, great. Then that's what it takes. But it's really a thoughtful process. So when you say it is rocket science it means that there is a process that you need to do and go through, and not that it can't be modified and changed, as we know, with the rockets that go up there and there's always modifications and changes in flight and so forth. So there's that opportunity too, with men's ministry to adapt and change as the Lord leads.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think with any type of new ministry, if it's new for your church, the idea is to develop a process of progress.
John Camerer: Amen.
Warren Mainard: And just say, okay, what can we do today? What can we effectively do today, but do it in a way that it builds towards tomorrow? So you're always trying to progress in the process that you've started. And I think having a coach, having a consultant, someone that has really taken the time to study this like you have, is a tremendous asset to a church and to a pastor who's trying to figure this thing out.
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Maybe without naming names or identifying specifically, share with us, like what are, for say a small to mid-size church, what might that look like in the first year or two?
John Camerer: Yeah. Well, I got to, I'm working with a church right now as the beginning stages, and we've had probably two meetings, almost three meetings and the process we've started as more education and information. Cause we, you got to build a foundation first because you just don't want to launch into all these activities without having a purpose, direction, and a foundation. So normally what we do, it usually takes anywhere for one to three months to get a leadership team going and help them to understand the importance of a leadership. What is your role as a leader? So, part of my job is to come in, share biblically, share practically, what does it mean to be a leader within the church or within a men's ministry. In 1 Corinthians 1:26, it talks about that not very many people are wise or noble or equipped to do the ministry. That we can be trained and directed in a manner that's going to help us to lead in that area. So what my desire is is the leadership team become to each other, what they want to the men in the church to become to each other. So we have a good understanding. So the first three or four months or two months maybe being that, and then we start looking towards launching an event. So we start planning towards what's the right next step for this church? Is it a barbecue? Is it a men's breakfast? Is it a hike? Is it a retreat? And we process that with them, and then we determine, okay, if it's going to be, let's say we're going to have a men's breakfast, then we look at who's our audience? Who's our demographic? Who's going to speak? What's the outcome? So we have actually a planning process to, for that breakfast to understand the dynamics that we're going to face within the breakfast, and then what do we want the guys to do next. And so we began looking at that to say, if it's a Bible study or whatever that might be, to engage them in. And there's a whole communication process that we help start educating the church as well, with the pastor and ministry leaders, help them understand what the men's ministry is to look like, what are we trying to accomplish. And then we just continue to walk through and kind of get into the various areas of what does it look like to have an all-inclusive ministry. Often churches will look at a men's ministry and it's a Bible study, men's Bible study. It's a breakfast and maybe a retreat. Well, that only really captures a small percentage of your men. Typically, a men's breakfast will probably gather maybe 20, 25% of your men in your church. What do you do with the other 80% or 75%? So the all-inclusive concept is, how do we include all your men in the church? How do we break down the barriers that these guys that are ushering or working in the parking lot, are not part of your men's ministry. I mean, you have a deacon that's out at nine o'clock at night changing out a water heater in a homeless single mom's house or somebody, and he misses the breakfast on Saturday because he was up till midnight doing this. How is he not a part of the ministry? How do you not support that man in what he's doing? So we begin looking at that and how can we communicate and support other men in the church that are doing ministry that aren't necessarily... in fact, we would like to do away with the term 'men's ministry' and really say 'ministry to men' because when you hear men's ministry, you think of those few things that men do in the church. And really you're ministering to the men in, as a whole, in the church. So that's kind, I mean, I can go on, but it kind of gives you an idea that in the first year, you would launch an event, you'd have a follow up, you would have a retreat, you would have men getting into one-on-one discipleship type situations within the church. and then there's naturally annual planning and really looking what's out in the community too. It's not about what's just in your church, because you're going to have hurting guys in all areas of their spiritual walk. So what's available? Celebrate Recovery, Prodigals International, how can you be aware of what's happening in your community that you can connect to men? And we really believe that you'll see an increase in men coming to your church thinking outward focus. In fact, we did a study, Man in the Mirror did a study about eight years ago with 294 churches over a two and a half year period. And what they found is churches that fully implemented the model saw an 84% increase in men being discipled in their church. Meaning new people or people that are in the church that are now farther down the line with their relationship with Christ and so we know it can be impactful if it's done the right way.
Warren Mainard: Yeah. And I'm sure if you were to look at those churches that were doing that, overall their church health is significantly higher than the churches that are not effectively discipling men. I would guess, and maybe you've got the research to back this up, I don't know, but I would guess that a church that is effectively discipling men is doing better in the areas of financial giving.
John Camerer: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Doing better in the areas of healthy marriages within the family, is doing better in the areas of volunteer support. And probably in terms of long-term sustainability of even the pastor in his ministry.
John Camereer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
John Camerer: Yeah, I don't have any stats with me on hand I can think of, but the reality is I know that's true. I know it's happened in our church as well. And so I think there's a great impact in that area that you have an opportunity to grow in all those areas. As when men step up, then the church has an opportunity to live out what Christ has for the vision for that church. And really it's fleshing out the vision that the pastor has for a church. Some churches are very community minded. Some have other, overseas missions or whatever. But it just helps bring focus and helps guys to engage. We're thinking about having an event for the men in the church and then invite their wives. That we're just going to invite the wives, treat them to dinner and tell them, and share what we're doing in men's ministry. Because often the wives have no idea. He goes away for the weekend or he goes to a Bible study, and guys don't do, a lot of times, a good job communicating what's going on. But if we come and honor them and let them just know what's happening, so then next time the guy asks to go to a retreat or do something that's a little bit less painful, because the wife realizes the importance of that relationship and also that encourages her to maybe engage in her own faith walk and growth as well.
Warren Mainard: Guilty as charged. I am notoriously bad for not really letting my wife know everything that I'm doing in ministry and the life change that's happening and those kind of things. And actually just this past Wednesday night, we went out on a date together and I just was sharing some of those things. And it was phenomenal just giving her the opportunity to get a glimpse into that and to be able to be encouraged by what is happening in the lives of men and to be reminded of what a burden this is too. So, that's a great example. So, I've got a copy of another one of Patrick Morley's books. whenever this was published, it says over 2 million copies. It's probably far more than that even now 'cause this is a little bit of an older book. But, John, you know this, but those that are listening may not know, but Matt Wimmer who founded IMPACT Players, he was profoundly influenced by this book, by the work and the teaching of Patrick Morley. So if you're listening to this and you've gotten this far in the podcast, and you would like a copy of this book, I've got some extra copies, I'd be glad...
John Camerer: So do I.
Warren Mainard: Yeah, John's got some extra copies. So yeah, let us know. I would love to give you a copy of this book, "Solving the 24 Problems that Men Face." And so, John, as we wrap this up, let us know how can we support you? How can we find out more about what you're doing? How can a pastor connect with you to talk about getting a men's ministry going in their church?
John Camerer: Well, you can reach out to me personally. I don't know, Warren, if you're going to have my personal contact information available to them. But it's just, my email is [email protected]. So it's just my name. And also you can go to maninthemirror.org. That's going to take you to the homepage of our ministry. And then from there you can go find an area director, and you could easily find me that way under the Washington State Area Director. So that's an opportunity to be able to reach out to us as well. We also have simulcast trainings, like on March 27th. Nope, wrong date. I'm sorry. Let me give you this too so I get the right date. Yes, March 27th, we're having a national, No Man Left Behind simulcast that for, it's all day long from eight to four o'clock. It's going to be training, just what we're talking about. The Man in the Mirror book is going to be gone over - all the concepts and strategies. And then what we do is we do a segment when we go into a breakout session. So if you're on the Northwest, you go in with a bunch of guys and you talk about it and there'll be an area director within that breakout group to flush out your ideas, give you insights. So that's an opportunity. And we do that a few times a year for people. and then often we do that locally as well. But once Covid lifts a little bit more, we'll have, gatherings in churches and so forth. But support, pray, just pray for favor that God will open doors for me to meet with pastors and ministry leaders, and disciple men in their church. I just really believe that it's critical. It always has been critical, but I think as we look at what's happening in our communities right now in our nation, it's even more so critical that we empower our men to live a life in Christ.
Warren Mainard: Well, John, thank you for joining us on this. And, we are fully behind you and the work that you're doing, grateful for your involvement with IMPACT Players at the breakfasts. And we look forward to continuing to grow and explore opportunities where we can serve and encourage and bless one another. So thank you for being a part of this, John.
John Camerer: You're welcome. Thank you, Warren, very much for having me.
