Warren Mainard: Hello and welcome to the IMPACT Players Linking Shields podcast. Are you a man who is hiding something in the dark? Are you a man who feels like you are constantly living in fear of being found out? When you hear the words 'imposter syndrome', does that bring a tingle down to your back? Today on the IMPACT Players Linking Shields podcast, we have a new friend to IMPACT players, Mike Hatch, who will be sharing some open and honest aspects of his story that come out of his new book, Empowered Manhood, or excuse me, out of his new book, Manhood: Empowered by the Light of the Gospel, and with me as always is, my co-host Jon Beazley. Jon is the founder of Mind and Body, an incredible business and podcast that also works to help men to thrive in their physical health and mental strength. But with me today is Mike Hatch. Mike, we're so glad to have you on the show. A little bit about Mike before we let him share his story. Mike is, a Pittsburgh guy, so on the other side of the coast for most of our IMPACT players, but, he's been married to his bride for just over 20 years now. He has a 15-year-old son. He is, served in a variety of different ministry backgrounds with Young Life, serving as a men's pastor at a large church in Pittsburgh, and now he currently hosts, CLC, the, oh gosh. What does CLC stand for again, Mike?
Mike Hatch: That's okay. That's all right. CLC stands for Christ Led Communities.
Warren Mainard: Christ Led Communities Throwing Mountains Podcast and he serves, Christian small business owners as the Chapter President for Truth at Work in Pittsburgh. So Mike, thank you for being on the show today. And tell us a little bit about who you are, your work, and this book that you've written for men.
Mike Hatch: Yeah, no, I appreciate it. It's really good to be with you both, Jon and Warren. Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it. So yeah, basically, you know, being in ministry in young life, and then as a men's pastor, the common thread throughout there is, I worked with men of all ages. Of course, in Young Life, you work primarily with high school kids and, and obviously high school boys, but you've got the leaders that work with the kids that you train and you disciple and mentor through that process and develop them as leaders. And then you've got parents that you're working with, or you've got adults in the community that you're working with and, who are organizing events and becoming donors and things like that, and building relationships with businesses in the community. And so, throughout all of that time period in Young Life, you know, I met a lot of men, a lot of boys, a lot of young men. And what I found was a lot of them, if, I mean, gosh, I mean, when I say a lot of 'em, I mean, like over 90, 95% of them would resonate with, with some of the struggles that I had, with regard to pornography. And the challenge of what 1 John chapter one talks about walking in the dark versus walking in the light. And it was pervasive and it was a common theme among all men. And and when I would share my story of how God kind of shoved me into the light, it never failed. A guy would typically then open up, about their struggle with pornography or alcohol or whatever. Obviously most of the time it was pornography. And I began to kind of connect the dots in some ways from my own experience to theirs. And then as a men's pastor, that continued. And finally I think, let me think, it was probably 2018, 2019 maybe when I think I really decided, okay, there are some themes and some principles I'm seeing in scripture reflected in these relationships, these discipling relationships with so many men that I think, that I thought would be appropriate to put in a book form. However, I was hesitant because, and maybe you guys have thought this 'cause I could, maybe either one of you probably could easily write a book. I thought, well, there's so many books, like, why would I write a book? And who am I to add to the, you know, all the volumes of knowledge and learning and stuff and whatever? And I thought, nah. And I, so I really put on the back burner for a while until about 2020. Covid happened. And then, you could see in my work with men during that time too, that it became even more pervasive. We started hearing all sorts of things as people were trapped at home. The things that came to light as a result. I mean, men were, it was easier to hide some things when you had that work home, you know, bifurcation. And all of a sudden those things came together and you saw a whole 'nother influx of, I did, of men who were like, help. Like, I can't hold back the dam, you know, anymore. And so prompted me a little bit more to go ahead and finally, I decided to write the book. And, yeah, just kind of distilled out some of the principles from my story and then some of the themes I would see among men. But the big reason I think why I decided to write the book was that I really wanted to create something was Gospel-centered. I've read a lot of men's books out there, and obviously being in men's ministry, being a man myself, and many of them unfortunately sadly, lay heavy burdens on men, I would say, or approach it from a works-based, you know, kind of mentality, self-help kind of mentality. And man, I, that was not my experience in gaining freedom from my addiction to pornography. It was God's power at work in me. And, and so I wanted to make sure that I identified where that power came from and made the book explicitly very, like as I say, Gospel-centered. And we, of course, we can talk more about what that means, but that's kind of, that was the reason why I wrote it kinda a little bit about my journey of how I got to where I am now.
Jon Beazley: You know, that reminds me, like in Romans 2, which Romans is like one of the greatest treatise on the Gospel.
Mike Hatch: Oh, absolutely.
Jon Beazley: Even applied to, you know, especially when you round that corner from understanding justification to applying your justified status as a child of God.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: But in Romans 2, it's interesting 'cause after Romans 1, there's a lot of judgments being cast in that chapter. A lot of God's wrath and justice. But it's interesting, Romans 2, when it talks about what leads us actually to repentance, and I know this is more in a justification place, but I think it's true, even after one is justified in a sanctification context, the goodness of God led us to repentance.
Mike Hatch: Yes, yes.
Jon Beazley: And I sat there, I was thinking like, wow it, I would think what would logically follow was the justice of God led me to, I better get things in order , but it's actually God's goodness that brought me to that place, which is really interesting. Which, that's where the book of Romans goes to is this whole orienting our life around God's grace. And I have a lot of questions I'd like to ask you, but I was just kind of piggybacking off of what you were saying...
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: ...about being grace, Gospel-centered as approach to being. 'Cause it's easy, like, if I may digress.
Mike Hatch: Go for it. Yeah. This is great.
Jon Beazley: In Romans 6, he says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" And then he, yeah, he says, "May it never be!" And then if you say, okay, what's his reason for that? He could have easily said, "Well, there's a great consequence for sin." And that's true. The Bible talks about consequences. He could have said, "Well, do you know what that's gonna do to other people?" That's true too. It sin can, sin patterns can hurt other people. But he goes from there and he applies the Gospel. "How shall we that have died to sin," Like, our relationship to sin has changed, "How shall we live any longer therein?" And he begins to talk about the reality of this new union with Jesus that transforms everything.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: And I think as far as an approach to true change, we have to be Gospel oriented, or we fall into some type of earned work as you put it, worked based type of mentality. And sometimes that work based sounds Christian 'cause you use Christian language, but it actually ends up being anti-Gospel in its orientation. How would you speak to that?
Mike Hatch: Man, that is so, I love how you said that, helps me a ton too, to kind of know where you are and resonate very much. yeah. So I, it was, I was so works-based until God pushed me into the light where I, for the first time experienced his grace through that. And only then did I understand the power of the grace to change me, to your point. Like that's what it took for me to be changed. Prior to that I was, man, image management, lying, manipulating, hiding, trying to, all the things that I was most ashamed of, you know, trying to hold that back and squelch it down and play this role. And the whole time, I'm missing the grace. You know, I remember thinking to myself at times, people, I hear Christians talk about grace and joy and peace. And I vividly remember thinking, man, why am I missing that? I believe in Jesus. I believe I'm a Christian. Why does it seem like I don't have that same joy and peace that so many people talk about? I don't get it. And of course, then eventually I was shoved into the light when my basically, for those who don't know the story, my wife walked in on me while I'm looking at pornography. She was my fiancé at the time. She walked in on, we had, we got an apartment together, actually not living together, though. We were still living separate. But she came in at a time I was not expecting. Well, I was thought I'd have time on the computer. And, there it was, and everything blew up. She threw the ring back at me, two Bibles at me. She threw them at me, told me I committed adultery and walked out, and I was just left, left hanging. It was horrific. And, so anyway, so it was a process too. And I think, you alluded to this, she also obviously grew through this experience not making any, excuses for my behavior or anything that, you know, that she needed to understand me better. But, but she did have that sense that, like, who is this? My Christian husband who's, you know, a youth ministry on staff at a church isn't, aren't pedophiles and murderers the ones who struggle with pornography? So, but I was missing that grace until I was shoved into the light. And the way I describe it in the book is that when you are, when you're walking in the light, as he is in the light, this is straight out of 1 John chapter one, you have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus' son purifies you from all unrighteousness. We have true fellowship with one another because we get to know each other at a deeper level, right? And we get to really connect, of course. And the act of walking in the light or being transparent about our brokenness, our sin, and simultaneously God's goodness. And then as you brought up, Jon, as well, embracing our justification in that process as well. We, it takes an act of faith, right? It really does. And I think it's in that act of faith, of walking in the light, that the Holy Spirit, in many ways cleanses us from our sin. But I had to be pushed into the light and exposed, before I could truly experience the power of God's grace, like you're talking about.
Jon Beazley: Yeah. So it's both like, it, the light is painful.
Mike Hatch: Absolutely.
Jon Beazley: Also liberating. And like in some ways, experiencing that pain can kind of fortify a pivotal point, like wow. I don't, I really don't want to be, like, sin actually is painful and destructive, but also at the same time, it's one of the most beautiful, freeing things to step into the light. And, Hebrews 4 talks about coming boldly to the throne of grace...
Mike Hatch: Yes.
Jon Beazley: ...seeking help.
Mike Hatch: Yeah. I absolutely love it.
Jon Beazley: I remember when, the first time in my Christian life, when I actually understood that that provision to come boldly is available to me on my worst day. So in the context of our conversation, when somebody is viewing pornography, they may feel like I have no right to approach God at that moment. They're not thinking Gospel. Gospel actually says, no, no, no, God came to you in the Gospel.
Mike Hatch: Yes.
Jon Beazley: The incarnation said that God came to you. We were undesirable, we are fallen creatures. When I say undesirable, I don't mean that we don't have any intrinsic value. Obviously we're God's creation, imago de principle and everything, but yet as sinners separated from God, but God came to us, and this is the whole basis of the Gospel. And on my worst day, I can come boldly to the throne of grace because I have a great high priest. Jesus.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: I just think that having, that that knowledge actually enables me to come to the light.
Mike Hatch: Yes.
Jon Beazley: I know there's provision.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: And real, you hit on something really critical that I, this isn't explicitly, in the book. You could probably get it in some implicit ways, but it's actually something that God's been revealing to me in some ways afterwards, even. But I write in the book about, Jesus' interaction with Peter before he betrays him and before Jesus goes to the cross. Because to real quick, as before I get into that, Jon, to your point, so many men, we don't have a place to allow that process to happen to step, a safe place for us to step into the light, to confess, to repent in a place where there is encouragement and grace offered, you know, and you, but you see that model, you see it, or that pattern, identify when Jesus talks to Peter, and you also see it in the Old Testament, actually, when I, I'll, I can talk about that later. But when Jesus comes to Peter and he, or actually he's talking to the disciples as a whole, the apostles, and he says, Hey, look, guys, you're all going to abandon me. You're all gonna, and then he turns to Peter and says, "Oh, Peter, Peter, Satan is asked to sift you like wheat, but I've prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail." And then he says this really interesting thing, "And when you've turned back, strengthen your brothers." Really interesting. So basically what he's saying is, you are gonna fall in a sense, you're gonna, you're gonna sin, right? But he says, but when you've turned back, strengthen your brothers. So, so did his faith fail? I mean, maybe in some way, but also not if he's turning back to Christ eventually, and we know he did. It wasn't actually until Peter said, oh, he, his pride welled up and he said, I'm not gonna abandon you. I'm gonna go with you, you know, on to death and I'll never leave you, right. That's when Jesus gets specific with Peter and he says, oh, Peter, let me just humble you for a moment and tell you specifically, you are going to deny me three times before the rooster crows. It's almost as if he wasn't going to do that until Peter's pride welled up. Okay. So anyway, he does that. And of course, we know Peter did fall, he did deny Christ, three times. And afterwards though, Jesus restored him, and he, of course renewed and placed his faith in Christ in that moment on the beach when they were getting ready to eat the fish. And Jesus asked him three times, do you love me? And, you know, he restores him through that process. But as men, us falling, having to confess, repent, and be restored is the process of sanctification. Like that's, it's not that we, that we somehow, performance-minded, right. We're all performance minded as men. It's not like we work really hard and we make all this progress on our effort, and God kind of helps us out and we improve and we get better and more moral, et cetera. And then, oh, we fall, oh well, that's a setback. Shoot. Well, I lost some ground, but I can work hard and regain that ground. And with God's help, here we go. That's not actually. That's totally, that's worldly self-help wisdom and self-help is self-defeating. I say that in the book. That it, no, it's when we fall, 'cause we will, that we need to be, we need to have a place, a brotherhood and a safe place where we can come and confess, repent, and be restored. And that only happens in the light. If we stay in the dark, then it's going to, the shame is gonna grow like, like weeds, like a mold. And it's gonna keep us trapped.
Warren Mainard: That's so good. And I wanna go back to that story that you shared earlier, because, you know, in that 1 John passage, there's that portion where it says, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Mike Hatch: That's right. Yeah.
Warren Mainard: And so there's this self-deception, and I think the story that you shared with Peter kind of, I think illuminates two potential ways that we can deceive ourselves. Number one, we can deceive ourselves by saying, that would never happen to me.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: Like I, I'm a Christian. I got saved at summer camp. I made a decision. I want denial, I'll never fall like that. I would never do what that guy did. And so we deceive ourselves by thinking that we are, you know, beyond the possibility of falling into sin. And then on the other side is the deception of shame, which is to say, I can never overcome this sinfulness.
Mike Hatch: Absolutely.
Warren Mainard: So if anybody finds out, then it's done for me, and you know, everything that I've worked so hard for will be gone. And what I love about 1 John, is that it's, it's basically saying that, that both of those deceptions are equally damaging. And so, you know, kind of walk us through where you, Mike Hatch, were at 20 years ago as you were engaged to your wife, you're a young man at that time. You're going into ministry. I think you said you were working as a youth pastor. You probably on one hand felt like you had the tiger by the tail in your life, that you could do anything. And then on the other hand, and probably felt like I am one misstep away from everything I have crumbling and being taken away from me. So, you know, just kinda walk us through and like put your, allow other men to kind of step into that season that you were in. And what are some things that they could take away that, that you've learned through that process?
Mike Hatch: Yeah. I was absolutely driven by fear, as you just insinuated. I actually, I equate it to, I played football in high school, and... Did you guys happen, were you in sports? Did you play football or...?
Jon Beazley: I use to play football as well.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: Really? That's so surprising, Jon! I did not expect you to say that.
Jon Beazley: I know. I'm such a wimp.
Mike Hatch: Looking at your broad shoulders and anyway. Yeah, no, I, yeah. So I, and maybe other guys out there can I guess identify with this, but I played out fear. Like I was, I was afraid of making a mistake, you know. People don't realize sometimes football, what a mental game it is and how much information you have to keep in your head. These plays are complicated, some of these things, and you gotta know what other people are doing too. And it's, it can be overwhelming. So I was seriously afraid of making a mistake. And I was, also really scared of getting hurt. Okay. Those two things are a terrible combination when you're playing football. Like, you cannot be effective playing in that way. But that's the way I played. And so, that's the way I was living during that time too. And so I never was, I was not free. I didn't have the freedom. And as I mentioned before, I didn't have the peace and the joy because, I think in, because I was walking in the dark and not in the light. I was, and you alluded to this as well, I was deceiving myself. And I was also though, I would say trying to find a place, I was trying to find somewhere like a group of men. I had heard kinda whispers that there were these groups that, of men that met. And, but for whatever reason, I, in fact, I even I went to counseling, started going to counseling as well, because I, for me, I realized something was wrong, basically. I realized, look, this is an obsession. This is not healthy. It got to a place where, okay, I'm gonna date myself. So this is the, what, late nineties, you know, around 2000. So I'm not very involved in the internet at all. I am looking at magazines. I'm going to the magazine store, trying to find magazines that won't, that aren't totally obvious, like a, like a Maxim magazine or something like that. I'm going to the video store and trying to rent, well it was starting to cross over to DVDs a little bit, but trying to find the rating. I got really good at knowing the rated R rating that I, and looking at the description and understanding what might be good for me to see that would be helpful with that or not. I'm ashamed to say, but that, that's where I was. But it was, it was an obsession because, and a lot of it, you know, some of it also came from growing up in a dysfunctional family in many respects. And I was sexually abused as a child by a babysitter. Some of these things also played into this, of course, that kind of messed up the wiring. But yeah, I clearly could tell, like, I was trying to medicate, like I'm, I was like, and this is not healthy, and I don't have control over it. That's the other thing too. Like I, it had control over me basically, and I was at its beck and call basically. It took a while before I was willing to call it an addiction, but I knew there was an issue. I knew there was a problem. So I was seeking, I was looking for some place to figure out this issue and understand what was going on inside of me, but also very much at its mercy. So that's a, I guess that's a little bit about where I was. And then, so being pushed into the light was at first, obviously jolting. The way I describe it is, God was throwing me a lifeline, but it felt like someone just threw a grenade into our lives and just blew everything up. And part of that is because we as men, and I was like, this wanted control. I wanted to control things, and all of a sudden everything was out of my control. And that honestly, I believe is where God wants us, because then we begin to see his sovereignty, you know, come into play and the way he works in our lives. And so being out of control gave me this feeling of like falling in this deep, dark pit, endless pit with nothing to grab hold of. That's kind of how I felt as I was found out. Now that what I was surprised to discover though, was how many people came alongside of me. Now I was tied into a church community. Praise God for that. Okay. I'm sure there are guys listening who are not connected to community like that. And it, I can see why it would be even scarier in some ways. For me, I was scared because that persona I had developed of being a great Christian man, you know, that everybody looked up to and admired was gonna be shattered. And what was I gonna be left with? But I was surprised by people who came along and said, no, we love you. Some people, some men came to me and said, I've struggled like this before too. Let me come alongside of you. I met with our men's pastor at the time at our church, and he got me plugged into a CLC group, actually, as you mentioned before. And that was transforming because suddenly I found myself in this group of men who were willing to be vulnerable and transparent. I had not experienced that before. Not that at that level. And man, it was like, oh my gosh. It was as if I'd been holding my breath this whole time. And then suddenly oxygen, you know, or I was drowning and came up for air. And these men who are willing to share with me, it obviously gave me courage to share. And their acceptance of me and unconditional love of me, you know, was huge. 'Cause, so that was God's love coming through them to us or to me. And so that was huge. And so basically the, there are three main points that I talk about in the book that I think fit here maybe, is that is, when we step into the light and we're known by, or yeah, we step into the light. I call that empowered manhood. It's characterized by three basic things that I've noticed is that when we do that, we are known by God, grown by God, and owned by God. And, it's, I say that, notice the actor is God.
Jon Beazley: Yes.
Mike Hatch: Not us. I'm simply in the light now. I'm known by God through the community and through other men who get to know who I am and I get to know who they are. Like I said, the 1 John in passage, having fellowship with one another. The other piece to that is, I think we don't understand the uniqueness of, as a child of God, the uniqueness of our relationship with God. It is very unique. Yes, in a sense, we're all children of God in that God made all of us, and he loves everyone. But when you entrust your heart to Christ, when you are saved, it is a different level. You've moved into God's house. It's, you've been adopted. And so God, in a sense, accepts responsibility for you in ways that that wasn't true before. Basically, I think about my relationship with my dad or my grandfather. My grandfather was like a father figure to me, but he was a very, big personality, very successful in the coal industry. And so he had a, he was well known in the area where I grew up, and he loved all the people that he worked with and worked for, poured himself out for these coal miners, was in charge of mine safety and stuff. Well, I was his grandson though. So my relationship was different. I got to go spend the night at my grandparents' house. I got to wake up to the smell of coffee in their kitchen and run in and have, you know, sit on my grandfather's lap and have him say Michelangelo. And then, you know, he'd let me play, Play-Doh on their kitchen table for hours on end. Okay. That's because I had a very unique privileged relationship with my grandfather. And the same is true with our, when we come to faith in Christ, we're known by God in a very different way, very unique privileged way that I think we take for granted sometimes. But when you've been found out like that, it becomes so much more meaningful and impactful. And so that, that's one piece: grown by God. Philippians 2:13 talks about the fact that, you know, it is God who works in us to willing to act according to his good purpose. So, I mean, that's even the desire to want to please and obey God doesn't, it's a gift from God still.
Jon Beazley: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: You know, so we are so unbelievably dependent on him. So it's him who grows us, and it's us entrusting ourselves to him, to that process, that allows us to grow and be sanctified. And so I guess, known by God kind of really touches on the justification piece, Jon, and the grown by God, of course, sanctification, but then also owned by God is also, I think, a sanctification piece as well, that suddenly my will is not my own.
Jon Beazley: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: 'Cause now I'm known and loved by God and man, he has changed my will is in, you know, runs parallel with his. Now, I care about the things he cares about. And so I'm sold out to his purposes rather than my agenda.
Jon Beazley: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: The woman at the well, you know, that Jesus spoke to who left the jar behind and ran into the, to the town, to the people that she had been most of her life, working to avoid. What made her do that? What made her go run to the people that she had been avoiding for all of her life out of shame to tell 'em about Jesus? It was, she was owned by God in that moment. And that's the only thing that explains my change in embracing my sin, because in the sense that acknowledging that it's, that I am sinful in this way and that God, it's because God is good, and I can live and trust in him. So, anyway, yeah. So known by God, grown by God, and owned by God, that's what I discovered after walking in the light long enough, if that makes any sense. And there were other things that played into it. Of course, I got involved in some recovery, Christ-centered 12 step recovery, things that were really helpful for me to kind of dig up the roots, if you will, of some of the things that led to me acting out in those ways. And then that, that new levels of healing when you invite Christ into those moments, to really, to heal you from those things.
Jon Beazley: So, I have a question. Is it okay, Warren, if I jump you a question?
Warren Mainard: Go ahead.
Jon Beazley: So I grew up in a very legalistic context, great parents, but grew up in a context, it was more of, well, I won't go into all the details, but it was basically like a really, independent Baptist separatist context.
Mike Hatch: I was gonna guess Baptist. It's funny you say that. Okay.
Jon Beazley: Yeah. And, so they did a really good job of like repackaging legalism with a Jesus label. It was, a lot of, like a lot of Bible, but the Gospel thread outside after it, it is like, it went through justification, then after justification just kind of died. And then everything else, it was saved by grace, justified by struggle, or sanctified by struggle. So, and like what you just did was like, you're like, you probably could keep going. You're talking about the woman at the well, you're talking about all these people that stepped into the light and lived that in that posture and decided to not slip back into, in the darkness, which is easy to do. And which reminds me in that passage of Philippians 2 where it says, "For is God, which works in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure." Prior to that, it says, "Work out your salvation."
Mike Hatch: Yes, with fear and trembling.
Jon Beazley: If you stop there, you might be thinking, oh man, I gotta really conjure this up. But it's like, hey, I'm actually working out what is inevitably going to be worked out by God's grace. He's working in me both to, and I think it's like, if I understand, yes, I have a part of cooperating with God, which looks like stepping into the light, it becomes like a really freeing thing. But my question is, is that, and this ties into kind of purity culture. I don't know if you dive into that in your book, but in...
Mike Hatch: Not a whole lot, but I have an idea of what you're talking about.
Jon Beazley: In the purity culture mindset, they just basically make, they create everything as a taboo, and they go beyond like modesty to the nth degree. And, they almost portray anything with any sexuality or anything. It's just almost like, this is bad. This is bad is bad. But then all of a sudden it's like a switch that turns on like, oh, in marriage, this is good, this is good, this is good. But all young men like live into the suppression of like, I'm a sexual creature. I don't know what to do with this. Everything is, no, everything's bad. And I feel like this type of culture actually feeds a greater level of lust and distrust. It actually makes, it almost turns people into being, I'm not trying to be funny here, but I think, you know what I mean, turns people into being more kinky if, you know, they're like, you're just like, little things can, like, really excite them sexually. It's because they've lived in this really strict taboo context that, so not only is it lacking Gospel, the context actually just stirs in us all type of like just passions that if they lived in a more, like a different setting, a different context, we're almost like, hey, yes, we wanna be careful with our bodies, but you know, actually what God has created, sexuality is a beautiful thing. So it's almost like you're portraying it in the goodness and beauty of God, rather than just in the context of like, don't do this, don't do that. This is really bad. And, you know, I have like little kids, so when I tell my son, like, no, no, no. Like, I can pretty much guarantee it is like, now what I excited in him was like, I wanna do this thing, you know?
Mike Hatch: Right, right, right.
Jon Beazley: And so we get up, and when we just teach law, and it's like, pornography is so wicked. You should be looking at this, you know what you're doing late at night, it actually can be counterproductive. But I wonder with your study, how do you go about, you know, maybe laying out the dangers and, but at the same time trying to help bring actual freedom rather than just feeding curiosity and maybe some of these other things. Do you know what I'm getting at?
Warren Mainard: And Mike, before you, step into that, let me kind of add a little bit of a additional perspective and twist to that, because it's not only you. Like, you know, it's men all over the country. And not only that, but it's women all over the country. And now we've got, as dads, we've got our young sons that are dealing with those things. So I came up through the youth ministry era where 'true love waits' was a very big emphasis. So like, I remember, signing a covenant saying that I was gonna wait until I got married, and we actually sent it to the lawn in Washington DC and, you know, there were millions of these, or hundreds of thousands of these signed covenants by young people saying, I'm gonna wait. That kind of spawned what Jon was talking about, this purity culture approach of like, making these commitments to remain pure. So, when I met my wife, she had also signed a similar covenant. And I think to what Jon was talking about, it's like, we have this goal, this idea of what we wanna be, and then we have the reality of our own hormones and physical desires being, you know, horny young guys and surrounded in a sex saturated world. And we're trying to navigate all that. So I wonder if maybe as you kind of think about that, how do we speak about this tension between the goal and the biblical command of purity? You know, like Paul says, like, let there be no sexual immorality among you. It's not an idea, it's not a suggestion. It's a command of God, that high bar. And yet the reality that, almost every single Christian marriage or dating relationship has some sort of component of a battle going on sexually both relates to the husband, the man, the woman, the man and all that. So, does that make sense? Like, how do you help kind of wrestle with those two tensions of purity and yet also authenticity?
Mike Hatch: So you're battling a, on a lot of fronts there with, obviously the culture that's trying to sexualize oversexualize everything and make it, you know, desensitize us, you know. You've got folks who, I think probably, I don't wanna speak to their motives. I assume that they mean well, you know, talk about the purity movement that they are, hey, we wanna maintain a high standard and we wanna make a statement. And, I was very, I was in that as well, Warren, and really kept up a high standard when I was in high school, or so I thought, because when I was in school, I, everybody knew I was not the guy to invite to a party. So I, everybody knew me as the good Christian guy in high school. So they knew not to invite me to a party, and they knew, you know, I didn't have sex, I didn't have, do drugs, et cetera, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. However, it leaked out this way toward pornography though. And it became a point where I would actually justify viewing and acting out, while looking at pornography as a way to remain pure, you know. And so you've got people within the Christian world who are maintaining this super high standard, you wanna live up to it, right? Especially when you're young and idealistic. But in the meantime, the problem is, it's not reality.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: You're, what I mean is you're going to fail. It is a, I guarantee it, you are going to fail. So what happens when, like do, is there a place where, that you can go to? Is there a relationship? Is there a group? Is there a fellowship? Is there somewhere you can go to openly confess? Okay, 'cause we're called to confess our sins. So yeah, we're supposed to remove all hint of sex, of sexual morality, but at the same time, we're called to confess one to another and step into the light with each other, because that is where we experience God's grace. And so many, like as I think about what you guys just shared, there's so many pressures and struggles that beat against us with regards to purity like that. And yes, we will often, have a, what's the word I think, performance-minded kind of approach to it, I guess. Or there's a legalistic approach to it, dogmatic approach to it. And if, so I have found personally that the, all of that, all those things put this pressure, this pressure builds and builds and builds and builds, right? And for some guys, they escape altogether, not only to pornography, but to gaming and to total fantasy world. I think that's part of the reason why so many young men spend so much time gaming and in a totally alternate reality, because the current reality is they don't have the tools to deal with it. They, and it's overwhelming. And so every chance they get, they're just escaping. And then you've got, I think it's all tied together, the lower testosterone, you know, that can as be associated with this among men, of course, in our culture. The inability to perform sexually for our spouses. When we do get married, we find that, oh my gosh, this is not about me. If there's any, the biggest thing that I learned after getting married is how much sex is absolutely not about me. And when it's not about me, when it's about my partner's pleasure, that's when I get the most pleasure. Like, nobody told me this before marriage. And then, I'm like, holy cow. Like I, and yet we, so we focus all this energy on ourselves maintaining the standard and also, it, but, but yet having this eruption kind of inside that needs to come out in some way, you know. And then we get addicted to the pleasure we wanna, and you know, as guys, it just adds all of this pressure to life that I think it in some ways shouldn't be there in some ways. What did Jesus say? He said, "Take my yoke upon you for it is," what's the word? Is it easy and light? "And I will give you rest for your souls."
Jon Beazley: Right.
Mike Hatch: Like, he's talking about his, the teaching that he wants us to incorporate in our lives. It's not like that, so it's totally...
Warren Mainard: It's not white knuckling it. Yeah.
Mike Hatch: No, exactly. It's not, he's given us a way out, he's given us a place of security. We talked about this before. I can't remember if it was in our prayer before we started, or even during the, as you were talking during the interview, but there is, we can be free to go before the throne of grace with boldness.
Jon Beazley: Yes.
Mike Hatch: 'Cause of what Christ did for us. Like, but we need, how do we do that? That's the question. I think that's what young men, especially, they need that, that modeled for them. They need to be among other men who are, who are honest and vulnerable and can show what that looks like for them. And then to help facilitate that process of confession, repentance, restoration, you know, forgiveness, restoration, et cetera. Like to model that process for them.
Jon Beazley: Yes.
Mike Hatch: Man, do we need that. So in some ways, I think, like with my 15-year-old son, I've tried to kind of, in some ways take the intensity out of it almost in my communication with him. And obviously talk about the goodness of the gift that sex is, you know, that God gave us. But also to just simply to keep the lines of, I've been very open with my son about my addiction and letting him know my story too. Like, that's another thing. I think, unfortunately, a lot of parents and older men maybe aren't comfortable with that because they don't feel like they're worthy and haven't come to their own success or victory in that sin, if you wanna call it that.
Jon Beazley: Sure.
Mike Hatch: But yeah.
Jon Beazley: And I wonder if I could just interject here. So it sounds like to me, like you're saying, we keep the standard that God sets in front of us, but we need not to create this culture to where we're all pretending that we never have violated in this area. We're just like...
Mike Hatch: Absolutely.
Jon Beazley: It's like, yeah, like I don't, I don't struggle with this. I never do. And instead of that, you're saying, let, let's actually just all be honest and say that we all struggle sexually in some capacity. We've all struggled here, and we need to get in the rhythm of actually saying that to each other. So that we live in the light longer, as opposed to pretending we're in the light, when actually we're in darkness and we don't know where to turn. Is that kind of what you're saying?
Mike Hatch: Absolutely. Yeah.
Jon Beazley: And so, like, and the more you go, you stay in the light, maybe you'll actually lessen your falling moments. You know, you might actually not fall as many times because you're learning to own things. So there's a, so it's...
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: ...holiness in the context of Gospel light, you're like, I'm living in the light of the Gospel.
Mike Hatch: Yes.
Jon Beazley: I am becoming, you can almost say I'm sinning less in this way, but I'm also realizing until like I'm made completely whole at God's re-creation, I'm going to struggle. And that's actually a Gospel reality too.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: So I'm not gonna set up...
Mike Hatch: Absolutely.
Jon Beazley: ...but what you're saying is, is that in church as a whole, we haven't created a context like that. And this is why we have people like create much worse sins that have been hidden for years that could have been mitigated if we created a context where actually it's quite normal for people to come forward and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. I struggle with looking at porn or masturbation, or fill in the context. Is that what you're getting at?
Mike Hatch: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that that's not, and in churches today, it, the norm is, people come in looking their best, you know, it's rare to find a community within a church that has that kind of safety in being able to share and confess. And you see these other folks who, who seem to have it together, you know, and you feel like, well, gosh, I don't compare to them. So we compare, of course, like crazy in church. Atandards are set and we take great, that's, we take great pride in these standards, especially in the political environment we're in now. Oh my gosh. It's all about like, this is what we stand for, you know. And we've got big, high righteous standards. We are righteous and they're wrong. God forbid anybody make a mistake in that environment, holy cow. Just so much pressure put on men. So yes. I think that summed it up well.
Warren Mainard: And I think as we kind of bring this to a close, and this has been so rich just talking about things honestly, I do think it's probably fair to recognize that, you know, Mike, you've already alluded to this, that there's gotta be a time and a place for this.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Warren Mainard: You know, so one of the things that we're so passionate about with IMPACT Players is through our IMPACT cohorts, we create that space for men to share about whatever they're struggling with. I mean, sexual struggles is just one of a whole, you know, rainbow of a potential sins that guys may be dealing with. And at the end of the day, your struggle might be with pornography, another guy's struggle might be with materialism or with lying or with some other sort of addiction, gambling, whatever that might be. Anger, bitterness. There's so many ways that men could struggle, but at the end of the day, men, you've gotta have a place where you can go. You've gotta have a band of brothers. You've gotta have a marriage where you can share your struggles with one another. And I'll say that one of the things I tell guys all the time is that you've gotta learn, you've gotta practice the art of confession. So, you know, a lot of guys tell me, they're like, well, if I told my wife everything, it would ruin our marriage. And one of the things I tell them is that, hey, this cohort or this group of men that you're a part of, part of what we're here to do is to actually give you an opportunity to practice confession.
Mike Hatch: Amen. Amen. Yes, yes.
Warren Mainard: Because...
Mike Hatch: And real quick.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: I'm sorry, let me interject for just a second. 'Cause I, there was a thought that came back to me I wanted to share when Jon was sharing, and that is, yeah. I found that the longer I was in the light, the less grip the sin had on me. Not because I was confident in my own abilities to overcome or be free of it, but it, but because of God's, I was more confident in God's faithfulness to me.
Jon Beazley: Yes.
Mike Hatch: If that makes any sense, right.
Jon Beazley: It does.
Warren Mainard: Right.
Mike Hatch: That's where I grew in confidence. And the sin became less of a grip on me.
Jon Beazley: So good.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: Had less power for me.
Warren Mainard: So we confess our sins to God, we confess our sins to one another, and when we do that we find ourselves in the light. And as men, we should not set ourselves up as the standard in such a way that people don't think that we ever need to confess, but that they see us husband, dad, leader as the best confessors and repenters...
Mike Hatch: Yes.
Warren Mainard: ...that anybody knows.
Mike Hatch: Preach it, Warren. That is so good. Preach it.
Warren Mainard: We do it better than anybody else because we're living in the light. We're walking in the Gospel. So, Mike, as we kinda wrap this up, if you could just speak directly to the men listening to this. Is there one final thought that you really wanna just say to the man that maybe listening to this going, man, I hear you guys talking about this, but I could never do that. Like if I did, my life would be over. What would you say to that man?
Mike Hatch: Number one, I would say, man, God is so faithful. God is so good. And when you step out, imagine that that Indiana Jones movie, I forget which one it was, but he steps out right into that chasm and suddenly finds himself on solid ground somehow. You know, that step. Classic movie moment. And that is what, when you step into the light, you will discover the solidity of God's goodness in your life. Okay> Man, he is so faithful. So that's number one. Number two, I would say to, if your wife is someone you can confide in, that's great. That's great. However, some I don't necessarily, I'm not one of those folks, and I hope this doesn't contradict you guys too much, but I don't necessarily think it always works that your wife is your accountability partner. I think the first step is to find someone safe and another guy that you can trust and will hold that confidence, I guess, to confess, to first. Start there. And I just believe that God will show himself faithful and provide. And, but that, yeah, so that's what I would say. God is faithful. And the other, oh, last thing is Jesus talks about cutting off, you know, your arm or gouging out your eye. So I've had tremendous success, by God's grace, with a program called Covenant Eyes. That I have on all of my electronics, my laptop, the little eyes up here looking at me right now. My iPhone, every single thing. Yes, sometimes it's annoying, it slows things down and sometimes affects operability, but it's worth it. Because for me, it has eliminated. And I've got my wife and a friend who are my accountability partners. And man, it has eliminated a lot of temptation, unnecessary temptation. That's part of it. We surround ourselves with or are confronted with a lot of things that tempt us. And if you can cut that off, that goes a long way.
Jon Beazley: Amen. That's great. Great advice. I love that very much. I've used Covenant Eyes for years as well, and it's just a great, what do you, would you call it software or would you call it? Program?
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: Whatever you call it.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: It's fantastic.
Mike Hatch: Yep.
Warren Mainard: Absolutely.
Jon Beazley: Well, I really appreciated this conversation. It was really fun. I know we're coming to an end here and man, this, I feel like this topic could be talked about like weeks and weeks. We could have just kept going, but I think there was a lot of good value here for men listening in to, and I love the simplicity of it. I just, like, if you got anything, it's like, I want to, by God's grace, step into the light. That takes a lot of courage.
Warren Mainard: Yeah.
Jon Beazley: But God's grace is available.
Warren Mainard: Well thank you, Mike, for being so honest and vulnerable on this podcast. We practice audacious authenticity here at IMPACT Players, and you have modeled that so well today. And to all of our listeners, if you are new to the IMPACT Players community, the vision of IMPACT Players is to inspire men to be great husbands, fathers, and leaders by equipping them to thrive in the relationships that matter most. And you cannot thrive if you are hiding anything in the dark, bring it out into the light, walk through the pain that that light may initially bring, but know that just beyond the initial pain, there is cleansing, there is healing, there is hope, and there is beauty. So hang in there. Mike, thank you again. Guys, thanks for being a part of this podcast. We will catch you guys next time.
